In respone to this recent MFG topic.........

[Werewood]

In respone to this recent MFG topic.........

 

I am coming across with this recent MFG topic........."What ruins a mugen character for you?"  => http://mugenguild.com/forum/topics/what-ruins-mugen-character-you-155428.0.html  I can say that 70% of the posts/replies to this MFG topic sounds reasonable and understandable. 

Not a bad topic actually.

 

 Yet, 15% of which is making me feel quite uneasy and uncomfortable - to those MUGEN-source-game-accuracy whores:

   Borewood's response:

If you have expert knowledge/skill in the source game(s) and in MUGEN authoring, then why don't just     D.I.Y and release your so-called "ruined MUGEN character" so everybody can praise and worship you by saying,     "yo you mugenized my [xyz] character so accurately!  you are my MUGEN hero!", instead of ranting and bitching     and complaining and laughing and insulting and yelling against the slightest inaccuracies by other MUGEN authors,

like no tomorrow, at the same time providing no/little real help, whenever you see a MUGEN character out with

source game inaccuracy?   As of my MUGEN knowledge source-game air juggles and corner pushes and some custom get-hit states are among   the from hardest to impossible things to mugenize..........correct me if I was wrong........   The other way around, I do admire MUGEN authors who are able to attain a certain level of MUGEN-source-game-accuracy

  very much, provided that these expert MUGEN authors prove by actually doing, not by just talking. Another 15% of which goes to original MUGEN characters, which are intrinsically having not much standards. I know in MFFA there are also members who are some MUGEN-source-game-accuracy whores (i.e. the one who said everywhere I ruined his Bai-Hu) too. Sorry but I couldn't think of any better words than "whores"......... I will lock this topic when discussions go crazy and furious or out of place......or if admins/mods dislike this topic then just delete it right away...

[Toshio Tenma]

Well, Werewood...

 

All I can suggest you is to ignore and move on, listening opinions from haters who don't care if you're getting better or not would not help.

[Kazagami]

Well.

 

People are most likely used to play the source games alot, that's why they're always aiming for accuracy.

 

After all.

Why didn't keep playing the source games instead of bitching about accuracy in mugen?  

[Xan]

After all.

Why didn't keep playing the source games instead of bitching about accuracy in mugen?  

* Xan jumps in *

Because a perfectly accurate character from one game going up against a perfectly accurate character from another game just won't happen in source.

* Xan jumps out of a nearby window *

[Werewood]

Well, Werewood...

 

All I can suggest you is to ignore and move on, listening opinions from haters who don't care if you're getting better or not would not help.

 

Sorry but it has nothing to do with getting better or not.  It is an issue about "irresponsible bitching".

 

I already made a new move on, by warning my MUGEN stuff downloaders with my new "Custom" labels.  I was just trying to white-knight those who fall victims of such insult accusation given by those "accuracy-happy pro-MUGEN-authoring-skill-capable whores who just seat there whining and bitching and playing MUGEN newbies/oldies like no tomorrow".

 

 

Well.

 

People are most likely used to play the source games alot, that's why they're always aiming for accuracy.

 

After all.

Why didn't keep playing the source games instead of bitching about accuracy in mugen?  

 

Well, like I mentioned, everybody likes MUGEN source-game accuracy.  I like it too and I admire those who can mugenize accurately and are willing to share their accurate MUGEN stuff with the others.  I just can't stand those who have the right source-game knowledge and MUGEN authoring skill, and just seat there bitching about other MUGEN authors' slightest source-game accuracy, and not actually using their MUGEN talent to make and share accurate MUGEN stuff.

 

@Xan:

>> Because a perfectly accurate character from one game going up against a perfectly accurate character from another game just won't happen in source.

I agree with you.  This is what MUGEN for -- the cross-over -- making fighting game fans' dream come true.  Yet, it is just so d@mn hard to mugenize sources accurately............some FTG systems are just nearly impossible to mugenize.............

 

Once again, this:

An abnormally ridiculously unreasonable scenario:

  - "Oh I want to use XXX from FTG2 in my MUGEN to fight YYY from FTG1.  But XXX hasn't been mugenzied yet.  What shall I do? 

I can't wait any longer!"

  - "Well, make a request thread, or better, DIY."

  - "DIY?  It looks like a tough job for me!"

  - "I know FTG2 very well.  But I won't tell you how to mugenize XXX.  I also won't mugenize XXX and let people enjoy that."

  - "Alright, I DIY'ed XXX and I want to share it with people."

  - "Hey, you just ruined XXX.  Stop your MUGEN'ing now!"

  - "Sh!t!  You told me to DIY and you were not giving any help, and now I mugenized XXX you ask me to stop!? 

Now can you mugenize a proper XXX please? Or at least improve my version?"

- "No, ha ha.  Enjoy my bashing and haunting from now on XD.  It's really funny to see you fall into this heh heh....."

[Xan]

I agree with you.  This is what MUGEN for -- the cross-over -- making fighting game fans' dream come true.  Yet, it is just so d@mn hard to mugenize sources accurately............some FTG systems are just nearly impossible to mugenize.............

What I said rings especially true if the character is labeled as, say, KOF 98 Rugal as opposed to just Rugal. If it's labeled as being from source, one expects it to be accurate to said source. Naturally, people will then point out flaws and inconsistencies as they spot them. It's not bitching in most contexts, it's people pointing out flaws and helping the character's accuracy improve as long as the author is willing to listen and implement said feedback.

 

As for FG sources that are hard to Mugenize, that's what time and effort are for. Nobody said Blazblue chars are easy to make, but Ares still does a fine job with them.

[Werewood]

This rings especially true if the character is labeled as, say, KOF 98 Rugal as opposed to just Rugal. If it's labeled as being from source, one expects it to be accurate to said source. Naturally, people will then point out flaws and inconsistencies as they spot them. It's not bitching in most contexts, it's people pointing out flaws and helping the character's accuracy improve as long as the author is willing to listen and implement said feedback.

 

As for FG sources that are hard to Mugenize, that's what time and effort are for. Nobody said Blazblue chars are easy to make, but Ares still does a fine job with them.

 

Okay, I am not saying people pointing out issues is wrong; indeed it is a very good thing to hear and know for all MUGEN creators/authors.  What is very much disturbing is, those "source-game-accuracy-happy whores" who do bitching ONLY without giving ANY kinds of useful helps. And, I repeat, I like source-game accuracy in MUGEN too.  But not every MUGEN author is that skillful to perform it well, especially the target character/stage has never been mugenized yet.  Man, why don't you MUGEN Pro's just give non-skillful MUGEN creators/authors some 2nd/3rd/4th/5th....../nth chance?

 

Time and effort are correct too.  But some knowledgeable MUGEN Pro's are just too selfish to give actual helps, to make the progress a bit faster and better.  If teachers are not needed, then there will be no students in schools.

 

And, don't tell me the following again, I have heard of this endless times and have gotten really tired of it:

  "if you don't have enough source-game knowledge and good MUGEN authoring skill, then don't even try to mugezine any

un-mugenized source-game character/stage.  Trying to fill your select.def gaps like that is a no-no."

[Xan]

If somebody points out flaws, good for them. If somebody points out flaws while acting like a complete prat, they could stand to improve how they say what they're saying. If somebody complains without any actual substance to back up their claims, they're not contributing anything and deserve nothing short of being completely ignored.

 

I honestly haven't seen many people criticize without substance behind their claims that much during my time around some of the forums I've been in. When people pointed out flaws, they tended to point out what was wrong. Even if they didn't know how to fix it, the mere fact that they knew something was wrong helped point the author in the right direction.

 

I myself can advocate for the idea that not knowing how to fix a problem doesn't mean you can't spot a problem. I don't code and I don't plan to. But I can give detailed feedback when I feel a character really needs it and I am able to point out flaws in regards to a character's system, whether custom or source accurate. My lack of coding knowledge just means I can't help fix it that well.

 

I can, however, also state that I haven't seen very many "Mugen Pros" withhold knowledge for the sake of being selfish. You're being rather pessimistic here.

 

That philosophy of "if you don't have enough source-game knowledge and good MUGEN authoring skill, then don't even try to mugezined any un-mugenized source-game character/stage" is ridiculous and we both know it. If one has no knowledge, how will they learn if such a thing is what others use to discourage them? It's like saying you shouldn't learn to read because you suck at reading. Completely backwards.

[Werewood]

>> pessimistic here.

A true story:

- "hey you should fix this red clsn box like that........"

- "ok I fixed that according to your suggestion.  please download my latest patch."

- "no I am not going to download.  and you have to stop making things for MUGEN."

 

How about this kind of irresponsible selfishness?  A MUGEN author who was willing to fix exactly what the feedback giver suggested, had been asked to stop MUGEN'ing?  And the one who asked is someone who has so high reputation and FTG/MUGEN knowledge/skill, my so-called "MUGEN Pro".

 

When expert feedback giver Staubhold asked me to fix some MUGEN issues, I did the fix exactly what he suggested.  But he wouldn't ask me to stop MUGEN'ing.  I can tell Staubhold knows the source game more than I do.  This is what a real MUGEN Pro should do.  There exists some MUGEN creators/authors who are not able to spot issues when their MUGEN stuff is released the first few times.

 

>> Completely backwards.

Sorry but you are dealing with ex-Werewood.......so chances are.........

 

And, one good example of being a non-selfish MUGEN Pro. (you like to use Blazblue as examples right?):

Neat Unsou @ rmbase.blog55.fc2.com, who has mugenized a very decently accurate CT Nu-13.  He is generous enough to post all his Blazblue knowledge and findings on his MUGEN web site, just to share his way to let other Blazblue mugenizers use as reference.  Just in a big contrast to some selfish MUGEN Pro who bitches all days and nights about "oh this MUGEN character can crouch when running", while not posting the actual correct MUGEN AIR/CNS code for everybody to use to fix that.

 

Moreover, I had been in MFG/MI for 9-2=7 years and had seen many different non-selfish and selfish MUGEN Pro's who live in some forums circles or by their own.

[Toshio Tenma]

I got a lot of harsh feedback in early stages of Uran, so I quitted sharing my progress on spriters resource.

 

People who think we should be perfect don't know what they're saying.

 

We do mugen characters according to our wishes and not a selfish group who think that not being accurate ruins everything.

 

And I tested out Abel, he feels pretty smooth and I bet you considered adding new stuff so we don't need to bother about haters who want absolute accuracy.

 

Haters gonna hate!

[Kazagami]

* Xan jumps in *

Because a perfectly accurate character from one game going up against a perfectly accurate character from another game just won't happen in source.

* Xan jumps out of a nearby window *

 

This is 2nd time, i admit i've been defeated! :P

[Flowering Knight]

From what I've gathered in that thread, most of MFG is essentially this: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AccentuateTheNegative

[Neo_Fire_Sonic]

i'll be happy whenever i find an accurate blazblue char in mugen.

 

everything else i don't care whether they are accurate or not.

[CROM Lando]

lol i feel ya. I personally dont expect anything in mugen to be accurate to any source game. To me mugen is about whatever you want to make it or make period.  I actually commented in this thread too. I dont like overpowered stuff like the likes of nightmare broly and rare akuma but they do have some funny things to them .  i aint a fan of chibis either but i have had them. I look for things not accurate to source and taken to a different degree with adding in things that the actual companies products didnt add that would be cool. If i want accurate anything to source.. i play the source. thats it. My mugen since 2000 is all about customizing your way. i am dead on with  Toshio and Neo_fire_sonic posts. It would be good to find a accurate Blazblue character but i dont expect it either.  Good post folks.

 

haters gonna hate...so give em a tall glass of Haterade and just keep doing what ya enjoy doing and trying to improve along the way.  Thats all ya can do. lol 

[Xan]

From what I've gathered in that thread, most of MFG is essentially this: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AccentuateTheNegative

Not really. It just so happens that some of the people there are old codgers who can't stand anything less than perfect.

[Ryon]

i didnt read most of these comments but.

 

what ruins a character for me. are badly coded moves.

sometimes even if accurately coded to match the game, I feel people should use mugen to there advantage and make it better.

[Kanbei]

What ruins a character for me is when they are spriteswaps, but use goods sprites...

[Darkflare]

I think something rather important that is getting ignored is that even with "custom" gameplay a charter should feel loke that character. I.e Ryu should feel like Ryu no matter what gameplay he's made in.

[Xan]

I did take that into account in my replies. I wasn't referring to accuracy to the character itself in terms of 'custom' gameplay, but rather the game they're labeled as being from if that makes any sense.

[Werewood]

I think something rather important that is getting ignored is that even with "custom" gameplay a charter should feel loke that character. I.e Ryu should feel like Ryu no matter what gameplay he's made in.

 

Sorry but I think your statement contradicts itself - if a custom MUGEN Ryu feels like the source game Ryu then how can it be called "custom"?

 

I got a lot of harsh feedback in early stages of Uran, so I quitted sharing my progress on spriters resource.

 

People who think we should be perfect don't know what they're saying.

 

We do mugen characters according to our wishes and not a selfish group who think that not being accurate ruins everything.

 

And I tested out Abel, he feels pretty smooth and I bet you considered adding new stuff so we don't need to bother about haters who want absolute accuracy.

 

Haters gonna hate!

 

Those who bashed your Uran sprites are the ones I call "selfish Pro's".  In MUGEN there are too many such selfish MUGEN dudes whose only purpose is to "piss you off and make you rage-quit".  Then they will be the only ones left in the communities.  These selfish people should be eaten alive by Kusaregedo.

 

By the way, some source game accuracy done in MUGEN sometimes break things..........

[llyyr]

That's why I decided to leave forget Guild ever existed.

[Darkflare]

Sorry but I think your statement contradicts itself - if a custom MUGEN Ryu feels like the source game Ryu then how can it be called "custom"?

If you think my statement contradicts itself, then you've clearly have not played enough fighting games.

Play SF2 Ryu, play SFA Ryu, play SF3 Ryu, play CvS2 Ryu, play SF4 Ryu, hell...throw in MVC Ryu in there too. Yes, you have to adapt to different properties and system mechanics in each game, but if you play Ryu in any of them plenty enough, you will still feel familiarized with Ryu in any other, even if it's the first time you've played it. No matter what game, Ryu still "feels" like Ryu.

A custom version is still possible to have the right feel to it. PotS Ryu is custom and he still managed to make him feel like Ryu in the official games.

In contrast, if you make a Ryu but give him stuff he never had or is out of place then yea, you made a custom Ryu, but he doesn't feel like Ryu anymore,

[LightFlare_Da_Realest]

lol i feel ya. I personally dont expect anything in mugen to be accurate to any source game. To me mugen is about whatever you want to make it or make period.  I actually commented in this thread too. I dont like overpowered stuff like the likes of nightmare broly and rare akuma but they do have some funny things to them .  i aint a fan of chibis either but i have had them. I look for things not accurate to source and taken to a different degree with adding in things that the actual companies products didnt add that would be cool. If i want accurate anything to source.. i play the source. thats it. My mugen since 2000 is all about customizing your way. i am dead on with  Toshio and Neo_fire_sonic posts. It would be good to find a accurate Blazblue character but i dont expect it either.  Good post folks. haters gonna hate...so give em a tall glass of Haterade and just keep doing what ya enjoy doing and trying to improve along the way.  Thats all ya can do. lol

i didnt read most of these comments but. what ruins a character for me. are badly coded moves.sometimes even if accurately coded to match the game, I feel people should use mugen to there advantage and make it better.

I gotta agree with these.

If you think my statement contradicts itself, then you've clearly have not played enough fighting games.

Play SF2 Ryu, play SFA Ryu, play SF3 Ryu, play CvS2 Ryu, play SF4 Ryu, hell...throw in MVC Ryu in there too. Yes, you have to adapt to different properties and system mechanics in each game, but if you play Ryu in any of them plenty enough, you will still feel familiarized with Ryu in any other, even if it's the first time you've played it. No matter what game, Ryu still "feels" like Ryu.

A custom version is still possible to have the right feel to it. PotS Ryu is custom and he still managed to make him feel like Ryu in the official games.

In contrast, if you make a Ryu but give him stuff he never had or is out of place then yea, you made a custom Ryu, but he doesn't feel like Ryu anymore,

Dorkflare's got a point. If I had played any of those games and Ryu didnt play like Ryu, I'd be highly upset. Lol! But like Lando said...mugen is about whatever you wanna make it. I haven't dropped a single 100% accurate stage yet. Ain't nobody complained about that yet!

[Werewood]

Okay!  Let me define my meaning of "custom".

 

Most of the time, in my own MUGEN dictionary, "Custom" means "Inaccurate".

 

"Custom" not only means adding some non-existing features, but also more importantly the "source game mechanism", not just the feel.

 

For example,

A real SF3.3 Ryu can jump [this] high and back-dash [this] far, while a MUGEN SF3.3 Ryu jumps higher and back-dash shorter.

A real SF3.3 Ryu can air-juggle P2 [this number of times] with his light Shoryuken, while a MUGEN SF3.3 Ryu does a few more air-juggle with the same special move.

A real SF3.3 Ryu's strong Hadouken has hit box of [this size], while a MUGEN SF3.3 Ryu has a smaller hit box size.

A real SF3.3 Ryu can enter a dizzy state after [this number of get-hits], while a MUGEN SF3.3 Ryu never gets dizzy at all.

 

And, that ridiculous "can crouch while running" accuse!

 

These "source game MUGEN inaccuracy" things are the ones I refer to "Custom".  Feels should only include such source game MUGEN accuracy, not the added non-existing features.  A proton cannon addition has nothing to do with the source game feel because it is not available in the source game.

 

It seems to me that, to those selfish MUGEN Pro's and dudes, when they see any of the above "Custom" MUGEN works, they just freak out like no tomorrow.  Then all kinds of e-bullying and e-haunting happen -- the results are:  many flame wars and rage-quits and bannings.

[The Unexpected Visitor]

Okay!  Let me define my meaning of "custom".

 

Most of the time, in my own MUGEN dictionary, "Custom" means "Inaccurate".

 

"Custom" not only means adding some non-existing features, but also more importantly the "source game mechanism", not just the feel.

 

For example,

A real SF3.3 Ryu can jump [this] high and back-dash [this] far, while a MUGEN SF3.3 Ryu jumps higher and back-dash shorter.

A real SF3.3 Ryu can air-juggle P2 [this number of times] with his light Shoryuken, while a MUGEN SF3.3 Ryu does a few more air-juggle with the same special move.

A real SF3.3 Ryu's strong Hadouken has hit box of [this size], while a MUGEN SF3.3 Ryu has a smaller hit box size.

A real SF3.3 Ryu can enter a dizzy state after [this number of get-hits], while a MUGEN SF3.3 Ryu never gets dizzy at all.

 

And, that ridiculous "can crouch while running" accuse!

 

These "source game MUGEN inaccuracy" things are the ones I refer to "Custom".  Feels should only include such source game MUGEN accuracy, not the added non-existing features.  A proton cannon addition has nothing to do with the source game feel because it is not available in the source game.

 

It seems to me that, to those selfish MUGEN Pro's and dudes, when they see any of the above "Custom" MUGEN works, they just freak out like no tomorrow.  Then all kinds of e-bullying and e-haunting happen -- the results are:  many flame wars and rage-quits and bannings.

 

INCOMING WALL OF TEXT, sorry!

A character stops being "custom" when you label the character as "styled", if you call a char "SF3.3 Ryu" we expect it to play as SF3.3 did or at least have a small level of leniency towards the game. When a char is labelled as to be strictly of a source the comparisons towards the game might and will be made. Often there's more comparisons to a game when frame data or collision box data for it exists, otherwise the comparisons are done by "feel", for example if the char in source had a lot of gravity, and the char in MUGEN falls very slowly there is a problem with it. And etc. Now with custom gameplay there's a little few goofups you could make here and there, for example when you make a custom character have a few attacks from source and let's say you botchered a few things such as timing of the attack and how safe it is, the main problem with such things is that the char is gonna become hard to enjoy to long time players of said character, as things will throw them off and they will have a hard time to enjoy the character. So with custom gameplay if you're gonna have the char's original moves with custom gameplay, make sure they are lenient and well adapted to the custom gameplay and also make sure they feel like they should feel.

Also, the so called "ridiculous" crouching while running thing is a thing that varies from game to game, some games could allow you such thing, but when it comes to adapting your character to a labelled style that doesn't have it. it has to go. I do agree some people seem to make it mandatory and kind of forget that it's a "depends on game"  thing, but in general, if the game style you're trying to emulate doesn't allow you, it shouldn't in MUGEN.

About your examples, by the way, keep in mind I'm not a master of these things, so if I did a mistake writing this, please feel free to correct me anyone:

The first example it's all about a leniency factor, sometimes velocities are hard to emulate and all but they should at least allow you to get to similar places as the char in source should. It can be forgiven if it's a tiny little discrepancy, but say if he jumped a mile away, there's something wrong there.

The second example is bad because the source character WAS NOT SUPPOSED to juggle more than once in air, because of the way the game is designed. It could also allow for some oversights later on or overpowered combos that were not meant to be there, and even worse such as infinites or air traps. On the other side, imagine if the character didn't get impailed as high by the shoryuken, the other char would be able to recover faster than you and make the move risky and useless. The original game made the moves work the way it was intended because it fits the game design in this way

The third one is a bit tricky, again, it depends if hitbox data exists for the game and if it ruins the gameplans of the character, imagine MvC1 Ryu's hadokens having a tiny hitbox, they'd ruin his gameplans with it cause the game has a ton of air gameplay, so it would be even easier to jump over and punish.them.

And the last one... it really depends, some chars are heavy hitters and can have devastating combos, but to make up for this they have a dizzy system that allows you to also make it even, the dizzy system, despite being one of the things I hate the most, comes as helpful because there's players that could just pick a strong character, but it reminds them that it doesn't matter because if you play badly, you're gonna get punished for it, the downside is that in MUGEN, many characters have combo lengths and hitstrings that differ greatly, so you're most likely to see chars getting dizzy from a twenty four hit laser..

Also what do you mean by selfish MUGEN Pro's? From the interpretation I'm guessing, they really don't freak out like no tomorrow. For example, my Onodera Ren is custom, DarkFlare could be considered a MUGEN Pro, he didn't freak out like no tomorrow, because despite being of custom gameplay, I still respected source elements and fixed my character to get a correct feeling of what a MUGEN char should be.