Why sometimes people are so jerky relating to critics in Mugen?

[snowy997]

Because a good chunk of time people don't give constructive critics, they just say "This character is shit and should die a slow and painful death"

 

I don't understand. Mugen is a free game, if you had to pay to get the character, i would understand, but the game and characters are free. Just bullying on a creation is just sad. I wish more people played Mugen just for fun. They think all characters should be on "The_None" or "P.O.T.S." level of quality. Not everyone is like that, and that's what makes Mugen unique.

[JaaShooUhh]

Ever heard of the game Concord?

 

If so, then you know why people want higher quality stuff in MUGEN.

 

The reality is, nobody should be happy with low-quality, low-effort content.

 

If you're not good at something, then leave it to people that are.

 

If you want to get better, then learn from those that are.

 

After all, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

[Dissidia]

9 hours ago, snowy997 said:

Because a good chunk of time people don't give constructive critics, they just say "This character is shit and should die a slow and painful death"

 

I don't understand. Mugen is a free game, if you had to pay to get the character, i would understand, but the game and characters are free. Just bullying on a creation is just sad. I wish more people played Mugen just for fun. They think all characters should be on "The_None" or "P.O.T.S." level of quality. Not everyone is like that, and that's what makes Mugen unique.

I question the MUGEN groups you're in...

[Gaulbetti]

Mugen Discord servers are usually like that in my experience.

[KorosKoros]

On 7/18/2025 at 9:10 AM, snowy997 said:

Because a good chunk of time people don't give constructive critics, they just say "This character is shit and should die a slow and painful death"

 

I don't understand. Mugen is a free game, if you had to pay to get the character, i would understand, but the game and characters are free. Just bullying on a creation is just sad. I wish more people played Mugen just for fun. They think all characters should be on "The_None" or "P.O.T.S." level of quality. Not everyone is like that, and that's what makes Mugen unique.

 

Just like you have that opinion, we have ours. I don't think just posting ONLY positive comments on released characters is a healthy policy.

 

Sure, there are fans for everything as you said but there are also just as many haters. That's how it is with literally everything. 

 

Like for example I hate stuff that looks low effort or "child like art" sprites I feel look terrible. Usually made by people outside of Japan. 

 

Your free to like whatever, but we are free to hate whatever we want. Make no mistake, I'm not advocating for going to release threads to shit on the author or anything. Only saying people have their own opinions just like how you shared yours. 

[ARMUNK]

A character that is created without effort or sincerity may be subject to criticism. However, criticizing characters who are simply inexperienced requires more careful consideration. These users eventually create masterpieces over time. However, some users criticize without even considering such things. I think it's a very unfortunate and tiring evil for the creator.

[Gumhoy]

My answer as to the reason why people are so rude about MUGEN Characters being good/bad:

Human beings are complicated and their motivations for doing things don't always make sense.

This kind of thing has been happening since the dawn of time as far as MUGEN is concerned.
To that effect I'd say being overly critical of work, especially beginner work, has been more harmful than helpful.
That's largely because, disincentivized from exploring the engine further - that harshness shocks beginners into stepping away.
Having helped several beginners who've now gone on to make large catalogues of work, I think we deprive ourselves when this happens.
Wouldn't you, and everyone else you know, want _more_ characters, not less? Even the bad ones? No characters, means a dead hobby.
Authors that make bad characters have shown to be willing to put in the effort to learn how to make anything at all.
When honed in the correct way, taught, or directed to resources that can help them, they can eventually make work that's astounding.
I always say that when teaching people new to MUGEN, the only thing that will pull them through the process is how much they care.
Think of making a bad character as entering on the skill floor, and making a great one is reaching up towards the skill ceiling.
They are never, EVER, going to reach their full potential if we just bully them away for not being good enough near the very beginning.
Everyone has to start somewhere, and everyone learns at different rates, in different ways. Overly grandiose expectations are unrealistic.

Why not treat eachother like flawed human beings? Why not treat eachother realistically instead of holding fast to an IDEA of perfection?
If you want a person to make characters of a high quality, you would have to convince them to try, not bully them.
If you don't have a meaningful way to help them make higher quality characters, then isn't what you're saying irrelevant to that process?
I reiterate, if it doesn't help the author to make their character, "better," or otherwise encourage them to continue, it's useless to the process of making better characters.
Even so, what would make a person the, "perfect" arbiter of what makes a, "good or bad" character in an engine with no rules anyway?
Isn't MUGEN/IKEMEN perhaps amongst the most subjective form of fighting game experience on the planet?
Even if a person would like to centralize around a specific standard, who determines what that is? Participating in it SHOULD also be VOLUNTARY.
Also, what makes a person, "good enough" to admonish others for their shortcomings? Where is the line? Do shame and guilt help people truly strive for greatness?
I think we should centralize around a helpful environment, one that doesn't judge, but instead, informs.

My point is, I don't think the people who are overly critical genuinely have their priorities in order.
They either don't actually care about quality characters as much as they say they do, are only interested in being the gatekeepers concerning -

what's good or bad, or want to remain in the realm of plausible deniability by begging the question about how criticism is important for improvement/culture -
whilst ignoring how that criticism works in practice. My point is they're almost always useless, but I'm not sure they know any other way how to contribute beyond evoking failure.
Yes, there is an idea behind the, "objective" quality of art, but that should be kept far away from conversations regarding newcomers. (See bottom.)
It's absolutely ridiculous, and while the following reasoning may be spurious, I think it comes from a place of projection.
After being held up to an arbitrary standard in their personal lives, about whether their own art is, "good" or, "bad", and it being equated to their personhood:
they hold that standard onto other people, with that same lack of understanding, care, or even really knowing that what they're doing only producing a sense of -
shame, or perhaps guilt for not being enough in the individual they're trying to help. You see this in art all the time, and the fears surrounding it everywhere.

After all, the idea of an author, "being good" and their work, "being good", to a conceited collective is, hyperbolically, all that matters.
You don't get to exist beyond that. If you're not shooting for the Blue Ribbon, Gold Star, Everyone Loves You, top of the top, that's not good enough.
It's fine to appeal to a higher sense of humanity, but this just leads to perverse incentives, where people are constantly walking a tight rope.
It provokes all or nothing thinking, a vicious cognitive distortion that reduces people to PERFECT or TRASH.
If the author CAN live up to what's expected of them, they're safe, for now, and since they've been framed this way, maybe they'll frame others this way too.
If the author can't live up to what's expected of them, then they completely crash and burn, and throw everything away.
Guilt and Shame are bad motivators. You can only get away with so much negative reinforcement before a person explodes from the stress. Saying they should be, "tougher," is not an excuse.
The only ones who consistently do this, are the ones that want to hold onto what makes a person or a thing real. You're not real. Your feelings aren't real. You don't matter. (The Foundation of Abusive Thinking)
What matters, is being a part of the in-group, the group that doesn't get victimized because they make, "good stuff" or have a monopoly on the meaning of, "good stuff."
Being a member of the out-group, means you're treated with inevitable, constant suspicion. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. If they don't do this, then they never had to in the first place.
To bad actors, it's an extremely pleasant position to be in, as you can obfuscate your bullying as, "just trying to help." It's not about helping people, it was never about helping people.
If it was, they would just help, and they wouldn't even CARE if the work is good or bad.

They are all cowards. This kind of bullshit is for cowards. If it's participated in, it makes them a coward.
They can either just be a piece of shit, and own that - or they can choose to be a bad critic. There is no in-between for this garbage.
How can you tell if a person is actually acting like this, or is just inconsiderate? Continue reading.
Again, for any appeals to, "objective" quality, see the bottom of my post.

This also happens in every other community oriented around fan-based work, or work for fun.
It can be difficult to read the intention behind criticism; but I think the key is how much they talk about the work, versus the person making it.
Usually if they're talking more about the person making the piece, then they aren't really that interested in the actual work being done.
It falls on them to produce evidence as to why their ad hominem claims have any meaning towards a MUGEN Character's quality or not.
Even the implication as such, that the author's person is in short order due to them making a kind of wack MUGEN asset is enough to set off my alarm bells.
You will get feedback, no matter what you do, but you should ask yourself this question: "Why should I base my self value on this?" Just repeat it like a mantra.
If a person doesn't care about you, your effort doesn't matter to them, they insult you - treat you badly, make you feel bad, "Why should I base my self value on this?"
Take away the parts that can help you, and discard the rest. Only respect people who treat you with meaningful respect in kind.
We live in an age where attacking a person through needless criticism is an all too common Motte-and-Bailey style of argument.

"Your character fucking sucks, this sucks, you suck, I am going to make a bashing video. You should kill yourself." (The Motte: a sudden shocking claim)
"What, you don't want MUGEN to be better? I'm just criticizing to help you improve bro, if you can't handle that bro you need to learn to grow thicker skin.
Why are you such a little bitch? We don't need little bitches in MUGEN. Your work fucking sucks and you should feel awful about it, and it makes everyone
around you worse for pretending to put up with how dogshit it really is. My criticism is objective!! I'm not emotional, you're emotional! I can't believe
you don't even care about how what you're doing is affecting others!" (The Bailey: The pivot, now they're not defending their bullying, but MUGEN's quality as a whole!)

After attacking the work, and the author viciously, they retreat behind a veil, since their claims ultimately achieve nothing, they have to run away.
It's not about making work better, and it never really was - when it goes this far. I will not budge on this.
Criticism without consent or purpose is often meaningless. Appeals to, "making MUGEN better," inevitably fall under their discretion.
From there it becomes bullying, character assassination, and isolating language. It's incredibly manipulative, and MUGEN DESERVES BETTER.

While I'm straw manning here, I just wanted to provide an example of the kinds of logic I've seen out in the wild.
It's reductive, useless bullying hiding behind a mask that supposably aims to make MUGEN better by, "cutting off the fat."
That fat, being a seed that could flower into something beautiful.

Well, to that I say.

THAT ATTITUDE HARMS, NOT HELPS.
IF YOU WANT PEOPLE TO GET BETTER, ENCOURAGE THEM.
IF YOU WANT PEOPLE TO GET BETTER, TREAT THEM WITH RESPECT.
IF YOU WANT PEOPLE TO GET BETTER, DIRECT THEM TO RESOURCES.
ARE YOU GOING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, OR JUST COMPLAIN!?
WRITE A TUTORIAL. HELP PEOPLE ON DISCORD. MAKE MUGEN MORE ACCESSIBLE!

EXPECTING EVERYTHING TO BE GREAT REEKS OF ENTITLEMENT.
MUGEN AUTHORS GIVE THEIR FREE TIME, FOR YOU TO ENJOY YOURSELF.
DON'T BE SO SHAMEFUL, YOU HOLD MUGEN BACK FAR MORE THAN, "BAD" AUTHORS!

MAKE MUGEN A SAFE ENVIRONMENT FOR EVERYONE!

As far as Objectivity is concerned, there is always a secondary conversation to be had about works of art - like say, in a gallery setting, or amongst enthusiasts.
There is nothing wrong with attempting to try and quantify these things, but using it as a method through which to induce creators to be better is like yelling at a tomato for not being salsa. It's guilt.
As a rule of thumb, leave the author and their level of ability out of it, and try to discuss the merits of a piece, it's intention, premise, and themes on their own.
Art is good, if it serves it's intended purpose. Is it actually bad, if it doesn't have the intended purpose you think that it does? Is that an error on your own part?
Does every single piece of art that gets made have to fall into the quantifiable matrix of, "objective quality?" Does art only matter if it serves a societal standard of acceptability?
Stop pretending any one person can be objective about phenomena that can't be empirically observed/reproduced, that being the subjective interpretation of art.
To imply that you are objective, horrifyingly would imply that everyone else is not; or, that only you, and the people that agree with you, about what is objective are actually real. Which is laughable.
If you could be truly objective, we would be having a much more serious conversation about how you've solved the fundamental basis for the origin of human consciousness itself, not MUGEN.

Thanks. I love you all, and I love all MUGEN Authors especially. If you're NEW! Remember to KEEP YOUR CHIN UP!
You are more than what these meaningless hack bully frauds say about you, keep going!

[Gumhoy]

Also I agree that not all characters should be that quality, they simply can't.
If they want more characters to be like that, they should help people, then.
I would also like to add that I hold no ill will to people that enjoy or participate in The_None or POTS based characters/communities. (I LOVE POTS.)
I just don't find it realistic for most authors to become a legend of the hobby, and helping people is the only way to get them there anyway.

[JaaShooUhh]

I just want to elaborate on this...

 

...when I say "quality" or "good" characters, I don't mean based on a ranking system when compared to respected members of the MUGEN community.

 

I also do not mean the quality of their sprites, sounds, or effects, or even the balancing of these characters.

 

What I mean... at a fundamental BARE MINIMUM level is this:

 

1. The character has to be playable

In other words, if they're just a still image, then what the fuck are you doing?

 

2. The character has to have some kind of a moveset

Basically, even just a single punch and a single kick is sufficient.

 

3. The character has to have the correct hitboxes

Pretty much self-explained. Just have hitboxes that make sense.

 

 

Now, for people who are BAD at making characters, if you really are terrible at what you do, then do a half-decent spriteswap.

 

Like, in all seriousness. If you can't code for shit or even make a character, then just copy someone else's work.

 

As long as it is FUNCTIONAL and you inform people that it is a spriteswap, then most people won't mind.

 

But if you're releasing a character that is just like... a single image that does nothing or instakills the opponent or some BS like that, then please stop.

 

Quality does not mean PERFECTION, nor does it demand SKILL... all that is expected, is that whatever you make, is at the bare minimum, ENJOYABLE to use.

 

If you can't make an AI, there are tools for that.

 

If you can't make a character, there are TEMPLATES for that.

 

There should be no excuse as to why people can't even make a decent spriteswap if they're awful at making characters.

[Laharl]

Some people just won't improve though even if given respectful feedback however those are the people that it's kinda pointless to attempt to help. I myself have had multiple instances of people I attempted to help and it went extremely poorly. So I kinda just stopped doing that at this point.

[Gumhoy]

It does depend on the student, I completely agree - that's why having a robust library of tutorials will help buttress the need for a more direct approach in the future, if all goes well.