Gumhoy

It does depend on the student, I completely agree - that's why having a robust library of tutorials will help buttress the need for a more direct approach in the future, if all goes well.

Also I agree that not all characters should be that quality, they simply can't. If they want more characters to be like that, they should help people, then. I would also like to add that I hold no ill will to people that enjoy or participate in The_None or POTS based characters/communities. (I LOVE POTS.) I just don't find it realistic for most authors to become a legend of the hobby, and helping people is the only way to get them there anyway.

My answer as to the reason why people are so rude about MUGEN Characters being good/bad: Human beings are complicated and their motivations for doing things don't always make sense. This kind of thing has been happening since the dawn of time as far as MUGEN is concerned. To that effect I'd say being overly critical of work, especially beginner work, has been more harmful than helpful. That's largely because, disincentivized from exploring the engine further - that harshness shocks beginners into stepping away. Having helped several beginners who've now gone on to make large catalogues of work, I think we deprive ourselves when this happens. Wouldn't you, and everyone else you know, want _more_ characters, not less? Even the bad ones? No characters, means a dead hobby. Authors that make bad characters have shown to be willing to put in the effort to learn how to make anything at all. When honed in the correct way, taught, or directed to resources that can help them, they can eventually make work that's astounding. I always say that when teaching people new to MUGEN, the only thing that will pull them through the process is how much they care. Think of making a bad character as entering on the skill floor, and making a great one is reaching up towards the skill ceiling. They are never, EVER, going to reach their full potential if we just bully them away for not being good enough near the very beginning. Everyone has to start somewhere, and everyone learns at different rates, in different ways. Overly grandiose expectations are unrealistic. Why not treat eachother like flawed human beings? Why not treat eachother realistically instead of holding fast to an IDEA of perfection? If you want a person to make characters of a high quality, you would have to convince them to try, not bully them. If you don't have a meaningful way to help them make higher quality characters, then isn't what you're saying irrelevant to that process? I reiterate, if it doesn't help the author to make their character, "better," or otherwise encourage them to continue, it's useless to the process of making better characters. Even so, what would make a person the, "perfect" arbiter of what makes a, "good or bad" character in an engine with no rules anyway? Isn't MUGEN/IKEMEN perhaps amongst the most subjective form of fighting game experience on the planet? Even if a person would like to centralize around a specific standard, who determines what that is? Participating in it SHOULD also be VOLUNTARY. Also, what makes a person, "good enough" to admonish others for their shortcomings? Where is the line? Do shame and guilt help people truly strive for greatness? I think we should centralize around a helpful environment, one that doesn't judge, but instead, informs. My point is, I don't think the people who are overly critical genuinely have their priorities in order. They either don't actually care about quality characters as much as they say they do, are only interested in being the gatekeepers concerning - what's good or bad, or want to remain in the realm of plausible deniability by begging the question about how criticism is important for improvement/culture - whilst ignoring how that criticism works in practice. My point is they're almost always useless, but I'm not sure they know any other way how to contribute beyond evoking failure. Yes, there is an idea behind the, "objective" quality of art, but that should be kept far away from conversations regarding newcomers. (See bottom.) It's absolutely ridiculous, and while the following reasoning may be spurious, I think it comes from a place of projection. After being held up to an arbitrary standard in their personal lives, about whether their own art is, "good" or, "bad", and it being equated to their personhood: they hold that standard onto other people, with that same lack of understanding, care, or even really knowing that what they're doing only producing a sense of - shame, or perhaps guilt for not being enough in the individual they're trying to help. You see this in art all the time, and the fears surrounding it everywhere. After all, the idea of an author, "being good" and their work, "being good", to a conceited collective is, hyperbolically, all that matters. You don't get to exist beyond that. If you're not shooting for the Blue Ribbon, Gold Star, Everyone Loves You, top of the top, that's not good enough. It's fine to appeal to a higher sense of humanity, but this just leads to perverse incentives, where people are constantly walking a tight rope. It provokes all or nothing thinking, a vicious cognitive distortion that reduces people to PERFECT or TRASH. If the author CAN live up to what's expected of them, they're safe, for now, and since they've been framed this way, maybe they'll frame others this way too. If the author can't live up to what's expected of them, then they completely crash and burn, and throw everything away. Guilt and Shame are bad motivators. You can only get away with so much negative reinforcement before a person explodes from the stress. Saying they should be, "tougher," is not an excuse. The only ones who consistently do this, are the ones that want to hold onto what makes a person or a thing real. You're not real. Your feelings aren't real. You don't matter. (The Foundation of Abusive Thinking) What matters, is being a part of the in-group, the group that doesn't get victimized because they make, "good stuff" or have a monopoly on the meaning of, "good stuff." Being a member of the out-group, means you're treated with inevitable, constant suspicion. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. If they don't do this, then they never had to in the first place. To bad actors, it's an extremely pleasant position to be in, as you can obfuscate your bullying as, "just trying to help." It's not about helping people, it was never about helping people. If it was, they would just help, and they wouldn't even CARE if the work is good or bad. They are all cowards. This kind of bullshit is for cowards. If it's participated in, it makes them a coward. They can either just be a piece of shit, and own that - or they can choose to be a bad critic. There is no in-between for this garbage. How can you tell if a person is actually acting like this, or is just inconsiderate? Continue reading. Again, for any appeals to, "objective" quality, see the bottom of my post. This also happens in every other community oriented around fan-based work, or work for fun. It can be difficult to read the intention behind criticism; but I think the key is how much they talk about the work, versus the person making it. Usually if they're talking more about the person making the piece, then they aren't really that interested in the actual work being done. It falls on them to produce evidence as to why their ad hominem claims have any meaning towards a MUGEN Character's quality or not. Even the implication as such, that the author's person is in short order due to them making a kind of wack MUGEN asset is enough to set off my alarm bells. You will get feedback, no matter what you do, but you should ask yourself this question: "Why should I base my self value on this?" Just repeat it like a mantra. If a person doesn't care about you, your effort doesn't matter to them, they insult you - treat you badly, make you feel bad, "Why should I base my self value on this?" Take away the parts that can help you, and discard the rest. Only respect people who treat you with meaningful respect in kind. We live in an age where attacking a person through needless criticism is an all too common Motte-and-Bailey style of argument. "Your character fucking sucks, this sucks, you suck, I am going to make a bashing video. You should kill yourself." (The Motte: a sudden shocking claim) "What, you don't want MUGEN to be better? I'm just criticizing to help you improve bro, if you can't handle that bro you need to learn to grow thicker skin. Why are you such a little bitch? We don't need little bitches in MUGEN. Your work fucking sucks and you should feel awful about it, and it makes everyone around you worse for pretending to put up with how dogshit it really is. My criticism is objective!! I'm not emotional, you're emotional! I can't believe you don't even care about how what you're doing is affecting others!" (The Bailey: The pivot, now they're not defending their bullying, but MUGEN's quality as a whole!) After attacking the work, and the author viciously, they retreat behind a veil, since their claims ultimately achieve nothing, they have to run away. It's not about making work better, and it never really was - when it goes this far. I will not budge on this. Criticism without consent or purpose is often meaningless. Appeals to, "making MUGEN better," inevitably fall under their discretion. From there it becomes bullying, character assassination, and isolating language. It's incredibly manipulative, and MUGEN DESERVES BETTER. While I'm straw manning here, I just wanted to provide an example of the kinds of logic I've seen out in the wild. It's reductive, useless bullying hiding behind a mask that supposably aims to make MUGEN better by, "cutting off the fat." That fat, being a seed that could flower into something beautiful. Well, to that I say. THAT ATTITUDE HARMS, NOT HELPS. IF YOU WANT PEOPLE TO GET BETTER, ENCOURAGE THEM. IF YOU WANT PEOPLE TO GET BETTER, TREAT THEM WITH RESPECT. IF YOU WANT PEOPLE TO GET BETTER, DIRECT THEM TO RESOURCES. ARE YOU GOING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, OR JUST COMPLAIN!? WRITE A TUTORIAL. HELP PEOPLE ON DISCORD. MAKE MUGEN MORE ACCESSIBLE! EXPECTING EVERYTHING TO BE GREAT REEKS OF ENTITLEMENT. MUGEN AUTHORS GIVE THEIR FREE TIME, FOR YOU TO ENJOY YOURSELF. DON'T BE SO SHAMEFUL, YOU HOLD MUGEN BACK FAR MORE THAN, "BAD" AUTHORS! MAKE MUGEN A SAFE ENVIRONMENT FOR EVERYONE! As far as Objectivity is concerned, there is always a secondary conversation to be had about works of art - like say, in a gallery setting, or amongst enthusiasts. There is nothing wrong with attempting to try and quantify these things, but using it as a method through which to induce creators to be better is like yelling at a tomato for not being salsa. It's guilt. As a rule of thumb, leave the author and their level of ability out of it, and try to discuss the merits of a piece, it's intention, premise, and themes on their own. Art is good, if it serves it's intended purpose. Is it actually bad, if it doesn't have the intended purpose you think that it does? Is that an error on your own part? Does every single piece of art that gets made have to fall into the quantifiable matrix of, "objective quality?" Does art only matter if it serves a societal standard of acceptability? Stop pretending any one person can be objective about phenomena that can't be empirically observed/reproduced, that being the subjective interpretation of art. To imply that you are objective, horrifyingly would imply that everyone else is not; or, that only you, and the people that agree with you, about what is objective are actually real. Which is laughable. If you could be truly objective, we would be having a much more serious conversation about how you've solved the fundamental basis for the origin of human consciousness itself, not MUGEN. Thanks. I love you all, and I love all MUGEN Authors especially. If you're NEW! Remember to KEEP YOUR CHIN UP! You are more than what these meaningless hack bully frauds say about you, keep going!

Nice work pal.

It's totally fine! A State Controller is anything that looks like this! [State ### - Label] Type = What does this State Controller do? TriggerAll = What conditions MUST be met before it passes? Trigger 1 = In a vacuum, if TriggerAll passes, what else must happen to pass? Trigger 2... = All Numbered Trigger Groups act independently of one another Parameters = The specifics of what the State Controller does This is true for every single State Controller, from the simplest to the most complex. The reason why it's so hard for me to isolate exactly what is causing the problem is because I cannot read the variable labels and then reverse engineer what exactly is causing this problem to happen - which means in order to isolat it I, or you, would have to go Controller by Controller, based purely on vibes, using Ctrl + ; tool in Fighter Factory to comment out whatever we think is preventing him from chaining LP -> MP. I would just have to bash my head against a wall until I figure it out, but it makes me wonder if MUGEN/IKEMEN have anyway to flag Variable Changes outside of external tools that I could use as a vague heatmap to check amongst a specific set of variables. That would be very helpful, if it existed. Perhaps I might suggest a feature like that so I don't have to rely on something even more complicated like Cheat Engine. Don't worry, to be honest, the fix is probably extremely simple to execute - it's just finding a needle in a haystack really. If you can get Fighter Factory or Notepad, or Notepad ++ to open with the correct Japanese Text (I am assuming Warusaki is Japanese but I am uninformed.) and then Translate the Variables List it'd make life probably a lot easier for both you and for me. I just thought of this now, I don't know why I didn't try it earlier... I already have a Japanese Language Pack installed though on Windows so I suppose I was confused. So it's either shoot in the dark, test MUGEN, and see if LP -> MP w/ the Chain Inputs Or try finding out what's what on the Variables using a translation tool (DeepL or your brain!) Best of luck!

I've isolated the problem to StateDef -2 at least.

Alright. If you remove StateDef -2, remove the VarSets from States 200/201 210/211 in the .cns, remove the nochainID from the HitDefs You can now combo from 200/201 -> 210/211! Fun! That's progress since I've shrunk down what might be causing the problem.

Frustratingly, after erm, Lobotomizing the character Removing all of StateDef -2, all of StateDef -3, removing Config.txt in the .cns Removing every Trigger except for the one's we want to allow for chaining. Removing NoChainID and the VarSets from 210/211 in the .cns Only after that did the Chain Attack work, it's pretty impressive I had to rip out so much honestly in order to try and isolate what the problem is. StateDef -2 is gargantuan, taking up nearly 20% of the .cns, there are many VarSets and potential conditionals inside of it. Of course, it would be easier if I could translate the Var List but I'm not so lucky. I'm only trying to remove as little as possible in order to get this to work, and it's of course foggy, even for me. When something like this happens, you should try stripping as much as possible to try and isolate what the issue is, then work from there. Unless you have prior knowledge about what might be causing the problem. I checked for things like StateTypeSet conditions, MoveType Conditions, things like that. It looks like the issue is arising from StateDef -2, you might want to poke around some more in there. I'll keep on looking.

Is this for AI purposes or for Human/Player purposes? The distinction is important. If there is no Var(59) = 1, a !Var(59), or a Command = "command" on the Trigger List of the move, then it would be an AI move. Judging by what I'm seeing, I didn't notice Warusaki differentiate between what's AI and what isn't necessarily in an easy to read way. Try looking further down for the Normals with Command = "command" style text, say 200 -> 210 and try making some changes there. Please post the State Controllers as you have them, in addition, any footage of the phenomena you might be experiencing is very helpful. I will experiment myself momentarily, and check if there's any funkiness going on given the Groove System cvskyo by Warusaki3 seems to be using.

Hello everyone! Very glad to be here! Thank you RobotMonkeyHead, and thank you to Laharl - who helped get me through this process as smoothly as possible. I'd like to thank the MFFA Staff as well for all of their hard work leading up to this point, there wouldn't be an MFFA for me to join without them! I'm very interested in seeing what I can do to push MUGEN forward using MFFA as a powerful medium to do it. I just want to say that I appreciate each and every one of you for participating in keeping our wonderful hobby alive. There isn't anything quite like MUGEN, is there? Let's show the world together just what MUGEN is about! Here's to new beginnings! I hope you all have wonderful days on MFFA to share with us. Thank you!

Jason Voorhees is my FAVORITE character from Multiversus! He looks amazing! Excellent work!

Hello there WlanmaniaX! I've played around with this character for a little bit since yesterday. Some inputs have shifted around, your website hasn't been updated with her new special move inputs/names. I've found two bugs so far. "Kanker Rubber" (As listed on the Website it's a Canadian Squirt Gun!) StateNo = 1200, Input D, D, X + Y Hitting the Enemy with this move sends them into a Stun State If you hit the enemy when they are in the air, they will stand in the air instead of fall. "Tackling" (As listed in the .CNS) StateNo = 1150, Input F, F, X + Y Hitting the Enemy with this move sends Marie Kanker under the floor once it completes. Those are both full-on bugs I've found. Marie has a bizarre habit where she will jab when holding the forward or backward key, which can make controlling her as a human very awkward. I have one more thing I would like to mention, from the version I downloaded on your website, this character has an infinite! Canadian Squirt Gun (State 1200) Input - D, D, X+Y - When looped into itself, keeps the enemy in a stunned custom state. You can do this until the enemy dies, as it doesn't cost any bar or resource. I dream of landing all of her combo extensions in a single combo, which is a great feeling! Canadian Squirt Gun -> Short Hop -> (Air) -> LP, MK, MP, MK -> (Air End), LP, LK, MP, MK, HP, Lasso -> into... whatever I can think of! I want to try and land most of her moves in one combo and end it on Lee or a Super, if I can manage it, she's pretty fun to play. I may not be able to see how, but I wonder if you can use her HK to extend her combo, either on the ground, or in the air. Hmm. Thanks again for the fun character!

Hello there. I saw this thread linked in a discord, and decided to check it out. Ed Edd n Eddy is one of my favorite cartoons. I've seen the entire series, so let me say I am very appreciative that you'd go through all this effort to make a character from it. I've fiddled with the character for a little while. I like it! It reminds me of work by DDRCreations. Next I'll show you some things I've noticed about the character. I can't make certain commands in the command list come out. It also seems like some of them are unfinished. (Which is perhaps specified in the readme) Here's a list of moves I've gotten to work with manual input/ones I haven't: Specials Turkey Blaster ✔ Sneeze Counter ✔ Flying Sumo Attack ✔ (No idea why this has a separate command, "~F, a+b") Shel-Toss / ✔ (I tried to do this manually several times. Then I looked in the .cmd and tried to force a ChangeState to the State this attack is supposed to be.) (Using "changestate 1 1200" Nothing happens. Rather, I think the State Changed and then immediately switched back to State 0) (After further investigation, this attack is meant to be done in the air.) (The reason why it goes to state 0 is because when StateType = A, if you're close to the ground, you instantly enter a landing animation.) (With this revelation, you can do the attack, the command works, but only in the air. Please specify this in the readme ) Battering Ram ✔/ (This command seems to work using F, F, "x" but not the original command listed in the readme, which is F,F, "x+y") (If you try to use F,F, "x+y" you get the sneeze counter. Please change the readme to reflect this ) Strikers ✔/ (I've only ever gotten Naz to come out. The others don't seem to work for me.) Over all, they all work as far as commands go after further review. Just a little specification/readme change for a few and it'll be all good. Supers Lothar the Barbarian ✔ (Should be specified as being able to be used in the air as well.) Robo Bounty Hunters (It could just be that I'm terrible, but this command is strange. "~D, DB, B, DB, B, a+b") (I've tried to do it at normal speed, and even with time = 30 I can't ever get this one to come out.) (Usually instead, I just get the Canadian Squirt Gun, or nothing at all.) (So I looked at the .cmd to see if there would be anything that could stop it. I can't find anything at all.) (I guess just making it "~D, DB, B, D, DB, B, a+b" would help, but it could be that I'm just awful.) (I've only ever succeeded in making it work by inputting "changestate 1 3100" into the console.) Ed-Zilla ✔ Over all the characters moves and controls fairly intuitively as far as commands go. After finding out if the character works at a base level, we must next consider strategy. What does the character allow? I'll just jot down a bullet list of certain things I've taken into consideration. Short Hop Jump Medium Kick spam is an infinite. If the enemy blocks Short Hop Jump Medium Kick spam, you can switch to Standing Heavy Punch Spam to chip them to death. If Standing Heavy Punch is blocked, you can keep pressing "Z" to infinitely chip the enemy to death. Canadian Squirt Gun can infinite from full-screen with proper timing. Lothar the Barbarian's damage:power ratio is very good. I wouldn't use any other super if I didn't have to. Ed-zilla is a waste of meter for the damage it does and set-up it requires. (Enemy must be jumping, and near the ground for it to deal full damage.) Lothar does 306 damage per use for one bar of power. The most damage I've gotten Ed-Zilla to do is 456 for three bars of power. That's only if it does full damage. Unless you're an AI, who can use short-hop -> instant shel-toss to lock down the opponent on the approach. I don't see the reason in using Shel-toss. (Other than perhaps annoyance.) The ends of his run could use ctrl = 1, though there is a way to get around this by attacking during his run where you would like to stop. Battering Ram hurts Ed. Ed is nearly indestructible, as I'm sure you are aware. It's also a move that leaves him open to attack, especially from a range. There is no reason to use this move in my mind. Especially when Flying Sumo Attack gives you 100% iFrames and leaves the opponent in a state that lets you run up to them once they're down. Sneeze Counter seems circumspect, is it meant to be a long-range projectile counter? You can manually activate the sneeze by pressing Medium Kick, or "B" while in the sneeze counter state. It gives you a wall-bounce, which lets you follow up after. Making Battering Ram even worse of an option (wall-bounce you can follow up with no downsides, and you don't hurt yourself) Up close however, Sneeze Counter has a chance to just 100% whiff. With no visual indication something is hitting the opponent either, if you don't turn clsn's on, one might assume it's just a terrible up close move. Crouching Medium Kick, "c. B" seems to whiff almost every time I use it. Either increase the hitbox, or make Ed slide forward when he uses it. As an aside, perhaps letting him combo from Crouching Heavy Kick (sweep) spam, into Crouching Medium Kick afterwards, would let him combo into his Crouching Heavy Punch, which is a launcher. A lot of his clsns seem to be advantageous, almost to a fault. They do have very large hitboxes, compared to hurtboxes that only cover parts of his body, but how clsns are is subjective, and truly up to the author to decide upon. The only reason why I bring this up, is the fact that due to some of his hitboxes being so far forward, it makes it difficult to find consistent uses for a lot of his attacks. Not to mention it makes finding a consistent damaging air combo very difficult. That's all I have to say for now. I hope this was constructive. Thank you for taking time to make Ed! If I might add one more thought, one should consider the idea of a character "archetype." In Fighting Games there are many different Archetypes. Generalist (Ryu from Street Fighter), Zoner (Peacock from Skullgirls), Vortex (Akuma in SFIV), Grappler (Potemkin from Guilty Gear), Brawler (Abel from SFIV) Try to find a niche that you'd like to fit Ed into, it might help unify the rest of his design. I would try making him a power character, with slow but heavy hitting attacks and make the enemies scared of getting close. Hope we get to see a reference to ANGRY ED as a Raging Demon! Take care, and I hope you have fun working more on Ed.