[Gen7] Competitive Discussion

[RicePigeon]

This thread is for serious competitive discussion in Pokemon Sun & Moon only.
 
Common Terminology:

• Tier - A term used to describe a categorization of a Pokemon species or form based on their competitive "worth". These are usually decided by how often a Pokemon is used on a team. It should be worth noting that Pokemon with more than one forme will have each of their forms tiered separately from each other. Each tier also consists of its own metagame.
   
• Metagame - The overall environment of competitive Pokemon. Each tier has its own metagame, which are dictated by that tier's top threats and playstyles. Each tier's metagame will permit the use of Pokemon found in lower level tiers (with the exception of the NU metagame, as there is no tier lower than NU) while simultaneously restricting Pokemon belonging to higher tiers (with the exception of the Ubers metagame, which currently allows all Pokemon).
   
• AG - short for "Anything Goes", AG is the spiritual successor to Ubers before it became its own tier instead of a banlist. As the name implies, anything goes. This means that nothing is banned and there are no clauses.
   
• Ubers - Derived from the german word über (lit. "above" or "over"), this tier was originally a global banlist in earlier generations before it evolved into its own tier in later generations. The Ubers tier consists of Pokemon that are typically broken, and consists of predominantly super legendary Pokemon (i.e.: Mewtwo, Lugia, Rayquaza, etc) but may also include Pokemon that have been banned from the OU tier for being either too powerful or uncompetitive. While the ubers tier consists of as little bans as possible, certain moves and abilities that are deemed uncompetitive (i.e.: Moody, OHKO moves) may still be banned from time to time. DUbers is the Doubles equivalent of Ubers, which has its own tier list separate from Singles Ubers.
   
• OU - Short for "Over Used", this is the default tier that many competitive players play in. Pokemon that belong to this tier are based on their usage in the OU metagame, which allows for the use of any Pokemon not belonging to the Ubers tier. Any Pokemon that has at least a 50% chance of appearing at least once out of 20 teams in the OU Metagame (or 3.41% of all OU teams) belong to the OU tier. Those Pokemon who do not make the 3.41% cutoff will then be allowed in the UU Metagame, where the process is repeated to determine their tiering. DOU is the Doubles equivalent of OU, which has its own tier list separate from Singles OU. In Pokemon Online, the OU cutoff is raised from 3.41% to 4.0%
   
• BL - Short for "Borderline". BL is not a tier, but a banlist for the UU metagame. BL consists of Pokemon that have failed to achieve 3.41% useage in the OU Metagame, but have been explicitly banned from UU for being either too powerful or uncompetitive. Pokemon that are BL cannot be used in the UU, RU, NU, or PU metagames, and thus is treated as an extension of the OU tier. In Pokemon Online, the OU cutoff is raised from 3.41% to 4.0%
   
• UU - Short for "Under Used". Pokemon that belong to this tier are based on their usage in the UU metagame, which allows for the use of any Pokemon not belonging to the Ubers, OU, or BL tiers. Any Pokemon that has at least a 50% chance of appearing at least once out of 20 teams in the UU Metagame (or 3.41% of all UU teams) belong to the UU tier. Those Pokemon who do not make the 3.41% cutoff will then be allowed in the RU Metagame, where the process is repeated to determine their tiering. DUU is the Doubles equivalent of UU, which has its own tier list separate from Singles UU. In Pokemon Online, the UU cutoff is raised from 3.41% to 4.0%
   
• BL2 - Short for "Borderline 2". Just like BL, BL2 is a banlist for the RU metagame. BL2 consists of Pokemon that have failed to achieve 3.41% useage in the UU Metagame, but have been explicitly banned from RU for being either too powerful or uncompetitive. Pokemon that are BL2 cannot be used in the RU, NU, or PU metagames, and thus is treated as an extension of the UU tier. In Pokemon Online, the UU cutoff is raised from 3.41% to 4.0%
   
• RU - Short for "Rarely Used". Pokemon that belong to this tier are based on their usage in the RU metagame, which allows for the use of any Pokemon not belonging to the Ubers, OU, BL, UU, or BL2 tiers. Any Pokemon that has at least a 50% chance of appearing at least once out of 20 teams in the RU Metagame (or 3.41% of all RU teams) belong to the RU tier. Those Pokemon who do not make the 3.41% cutoff will then be allowed in the NU Metagame. In Pokemon Online's tiering system, the RU tier is replaced with the functionally identical LU tier.

 

• BL3 - Short for "Borderline 3". Just like BL and BL2, BL3 is a banlist for the NU metagame. BL3 consists of Pokemon that have failed to achieve 3.41% useage in the RU/LU Metagames, but have been explicitly banned from NU for being either too powerful or uncompetitive. Pokemon that are BL3 cannot be used in the NU or PU metagames, and thus is treated as an extension of the RU & LU tiers. In Pokemon Online, the LU cutoff is 4.0% instead of RU's 3.41% cutoff.
   
• NU - Short for "Never Used". Essentially the bottom tier of competitive Pokemon, Pokemon that belong to this tier are those who have failed to achieve at least 3.41% usage in all metagame tiers above NU. The NU Metagame allows for the use of any Pokemon not belonging to the Ubers, OU, BL, UU, BL2, RU/LU, or BL3 tiers.
   
• PU - Short for "Partially Used". A new tier that was first introduced as an unofficial tier in Gen 5, and later adopted as an official Smogon tier in Gen 6. Pokemon in this tier are those who have failed to achieve at least 3.41% usage in the NU Metagame. The PU Metagame allows for the use of any Pokemon not belonging to the Ubers, OU, BL, UU, BL2, RU, BL3, or NU tiers. Note that Pokemon Online's tiering system does not include an equivalent to the PU tier.
   
• LC - Short for "Little Cup", a format that was first introduced in Pokemon Stadium 2 and later in Pokemon Battle Revolution. Pokemon used in this format are all Level 5, and consists of Pokemon that are capable of evolving, but have not yet evolved.
  Additionally, the moves Sonic Boom and Dragon Rage are banned from use in LC.
   
• Counter - A counter refers to any Pokemon that is able to reliably switch in against a specific Pokemon 100% of the time, while also being able to beat that Pokemon or put it into a disadvantageous situation where it has no choice but to switch out.
  
  Examples:
  vs : Magnezone is a counter to Skarmory, as it can reliably switch in to any of Skarmory's attacks and reliably defeat it.
  vs : Chansey can reliably switch into any of Mega Charizard Y's attacks while healing more HP than Zard Y is able to deal in damage, forcing Mega Charizard Y to switch out, risk running out of PP, or die from Toxic damage.
   
• Check - A check refers to any Pokemon that cannot reliably switch in directly against a specific Pokemon 100% of the time, but when it does, it can beat that Pokemon or put it into a disadvantageous situation. Unlike a counter, these Pokemon require either more prediction to beat the Pokemon they are meant to check, or switching through an indirect switch such as through Volt Switch, U-turn, or after another Pokemon has fainted.
  
  Examples:
  vs : Tyranitar cannot reliably switch in directly to Mega Charizard Y as it risks being OHKOed by Focus Blast. However, Choice Scarf Tyranitar will be able to outspeed and OHKO Mega Charizard Y with Stone Edge.
  vs : Greninja is too frail to directly switch in to any of Terrakion's attacks, but it can reliably outspeed and OHKO any Terrakion that does not have Choice Scarf.
   
• VGC - Short for "Video Game Championships", the official Pokemon tournament that is held every year by The Pokemon Company International, which was first held in 2005 (when it was then known as "Journey Across America"). While the VGC format uses Double Battles, it is substantially different from regular Double Battles, as you are only allowed to choose 4 of the 6  Pokemon that you bring with you. While the Pokemon that are allowed at VGC differ from year to year, the VCG format usually bans Legendary Pokemon that are version mascots, as well as Event-only Pokemon. As of VGC 2017, only Pokemon that appear in the Alola Pokedex are allowed. Certain Legendary Pokemon, as well as all Mega Evolutions, are currently banned from play in VGC 2017

 

Competitive Pokemon Resources:

• Smogon - The oldest go-to website for competitive Pokemon play. Many players play by their rules and tiers. Although their primary focus is Singles OU, they do provide information on other metagames as well.
• Nuggetbridge - Founded by former Smogon members (as well as a former Smogon admin), Nuggetbridge is to Nintendo's official VGC competition as Smogon is to OU Singles. Site includes various articles on Nintendo's official format.
• Pokemon Showdown! - Web-based multi-generation battle simulator, that currently supports the first 6 generations of Pokemon games.
• Pokemon Online - Alternative battle simulator formerly supported by Smogon which predates Showdown. Currently supports Gen 5 and Gen 6 battles.
• Pokemon Laboratory - Formerly known as Shoddybattle, a simulator that was formerly supported by Smogon during the DPPt era. Currently only supports Gen 4 battles, it has now been superceded by other simulators such as Showdown and Pokemon Lab, the former of which also supports Gen 4 battles.
• Pokemon Netbattle - Originally programmed by TV's Ian and Smogon's founder chaos, Netbattle is one of the oldest Pokemon battle simulators, dating back to the GSC era, where it supported both Gen 1 and Gen 2 battles. Gen 3 support was later added, when it became Smogon's official battle simulator at the time. It fell into disuse when Diamond & Pearl was released, where Shoddybattle (later known as Pokemon Laboratory) became the preferred simulator. An unofficial update known as Netbattle Supremacy was later released with Gen 4 support, but has fallen into disuse.
• GSBot / RSBot - An old, text based battle simulator, GSBot was a script created for mIRC that was used to host Gen 2 battles over irc chatrooms. Unlike most simulators, GSBot was purely text based, and utilized command lines to initiate, as well as conduct, Pokemon battles. It was later updated with Gen 3 support, where it was then renamed RSBot. It fell out of use when Netbattle, the only competing battle simulator at the time, also added Gen 3 support and later became Smogon's official battle simulator.
• Porygon's Big Show - The oldest Pokemon battle simulator to date, PBS is a web based Gen 1 battle simulator. However, it does contain various inconsistencies with the Gen 1 games. For instance, Focus Energy uses Pokemon Stadium's mechanics, while Hyper Beam still uses the original RBY mechanics. Despite its age and inconsistencies, it was still used, causing it to receive an update in 2010, nearly a decade after its initial release. However, it currently does not support any Pokemon games other than Gen 1.

[Sweetfire13]

Game just came out and I'm amazed at the lack of discussion here.

Has Toxapex been suspected yet? That thing can live through a STAB EQ from Landorus.

[RicePigeon]

Toxapex is complete setup bait if it doesn't run Haze, and even then it's offensive presence is lacking. It doesn't really fit on any team builds outside of Stall and possibly balance.

 

Pheromosa, Aegislash, and Zygarde-Complete, on the other hand, need to get the banhammer from OU ASAP.

[RicePigeon]

So it looks like Zygarde-Complete was the first victim of OU's banhammer:

 

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/power-construct-zygarde-complete-is-now-banned-to-ubers.3587554/

 

They're also looking closely at Pheromosa & Aegislash, as well as Greninja, Hoopa-Unbound, Landorus-Incarnate, and Genesect as possible suspects. Oddly enough, no mention of Mega Mawile. Maybe we'll finally have a stable OU metagame with Mega Mawile present this time?

 

Note that only Power Construct was banned; Zygarde 50% and Zygarde 10% are still OU legal as long as they have Aura Break.

[Galvatron]

On 11/21/2016 at 4:46 PM, Sweetfire13 said:

Game just came out and I'm amazed at the lack of discussion here.

yeah i apology. you  can say i am little at fault about this considering my retirement from playing. not really into like i used to.... :-P

However if a remake of D/P/PL is possible for this gen (though I have doubts about it happening) then i might be jumping back in the discussion.

[Sweetfire13]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/aegislash-is-now-banned-from-ou.3588190/

 

Aegislash is now kill.

I'm guessing Pheromosa is under the spotlight now since Aegislash and Power Construct Zygarde are gone, especially since its main wall is gone

[MugoUrth]

I fully support banning Pheromosa. ...Actually, don't even get me started on how much I despise Pheromosa, please. But yes, like most anorexic Pokemon, it's WAY overpowered.

[RicePigeon]

So SM OU finally came out of Beta state, and Smogon is now writing up actual analyses for Pokemon in the OU meta and theres a few observations;

 

• Gengar losing Levitate has pretty much done absolutely nothing to its viability. It's still just as good of a stallbreaker as it was in Gen 6, and if anything, the loss of Levitate actually helps it more than hinders it now that it can properly absorb Toxapex's Toxic Spikes and take advantage of Terrains...
• ...which are everywhere now courtesy of the Tapus. With Aegislash gone, Tapu Lele is pretty much Hoopa-Unbound 2.0, except it can't be revenge killed with priority. Hell, Choice Band Tapu Bulu's Wood Hammer can even OHKO resisted hits (ie: Latios after Stealth Rock).
• Pheromosa is Pheromosa, not much else needs to be said except eventual ban.
• Tyranitar is almost nowhere right now. Guess its massive amount of weaknesses finally caught up to it.
• Alolan Ninetales actually caught me by surprise in terms of viability. Alola Ninetales has a solid niche on offense due to its ability to set up Aurora Veil and cancel out Rain (which is back with a vengeance this gen) but that's pretty much it. Don't even bother with Slush Rush Beartic or Alolan Sandslash, they're both pretty ass.
• Alolan Muk has a lot more utility than I expected, between Poison Touch + STAB Knock Off, its ability to check all four Tapus, Pursuit trapping, and its special bulk.
• Toxapex is just too passive. Yes, its a great wall and yes, it can use Haze to prevent itself from being setup bait, but there are times it really wishes it could break certain Pokemon's Substitutes with Scald...
• You'd think with Tapu Koko running rampant that Alolan Raichu would be viable, but it just isn't. Super speed doesn't mean much when you can't score KOs without a Nasty Plot boost and you're just too frail to use Nasty Plot effectively.
• Mega Alakazam is a beast right now, with both Tapu Lele being everywhere and the change to the Mega Evolution speed mechanics. Same with Mega Metagross, though to a lesser extent.
• Mega Venusaur is back in the spotlight again, with Tyranitar being less common, the Tapus being everywhere, especially Tapu Koko, and one of the few things that can survive Xurkitree.
• As if Dugtrio wasn't already good last gen, that +20 base attack it got in SM pretty much ensured that it would be everywhere, which it is.

[RicePigeon]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/landorus-incarnate-is-now-banned-from-ou.3589349/

 

Three in a row, tic-tac-toe

 

Spoiler

Whens Pheromosa's turn?