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RobotMonkeyHæd

Character stage etc creation trophies requirements discussion

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Before we activate the trophies for Character Creation, Stage Creation etc, I think an open discussion about the final requirements for each would give us the fairest version possible.

There was actually a small discussion about it a couple years ago where some points worth considering were made.
Part 1
Part 2

Here are where the requirements stand right now, just as a starting point.  We can adjust from here as people offer input.
 

_____/  Character Creator
For a character to be counted as complete, it must have all necessary sprites and states and no major bugs.  
Coding, sprites and animations quality must pass community evaluation. 

Bronze = create 2 complete characters
Silver = create 5 complete characters incorporating at least 3 strikers, and 3 animated hyper finish bgs
Gold = create 10 complete characters at least 4 with 5+ hypers and 5+ specials, and 4 with 3+ intros and win poses
Platinum = create 15 complete characters at least 1 source accurate (or very close), and 1 that clearly shows the refinement of your skills in some way


_____/  Stage Creator
For a stage to be counted as playable, there must be no exposed "background" space, and no major defects with
the edge movement or sliding parallax.  The images quality and consistency must also pass community evaluation.

Bronze = create 10 playable, animated, multi-layer, stages
Silver = create 25 playable, animated, multi-layer, stages at least 10 with parallax
Gold = create 50 playable, animated, multi-layer, stages at least 20 with super jump and 20 with zoom
Platinum = create 100 playable, animated, multi-layer stages, at least 10 with bg controllers, and 1 that clearly shows the refinement of your skills in some way

 

_____/   Motif Master
For a screen pack to be counted as complete it must have it's own intro, ending, title, select and vs screen. 
The screen packs overall quality must also pass community evaluation.

Bronze = create 2 complete screen packs
Silver = create 4 complete screen packs at least 1 high res
Gold = create 6 complete screen packs at least 3 with multiple slot options
Platinum = create 8 complete screen packs, at least 2 with custom life bars, and 1 that clearly shows the refinement of your skills in some way

 

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I just feel this kind of judging is only aimed to few character's game the judger likes most.

I know some here doesnt like JUS style (even myself) but there are huge differences of good quality JUS sprites and bad quality ones. how would this be judged in a community that just stares at jus and says ewww i dont like the style?

 

 

JUS was only an example of many character styles that a lot of people wouldnt use a choice for playing but that doesnt mean the character is bad. The requirements sounds like if the coder should stop doing the style they love to fit the style the judges love and this is far away from being a valid point to hard analysis.

 

 

IMO only include basic related art stuffs for mugen such as required sprites etc because since ive joined discord i can only see people only liking few loli-related games and i can ensure you this will scare those not going from this way and good potential candidates will lose due a huge error margin you are inputting here.

 

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Like I said on Discord, the criteria for the silver and gold trophies enforces a specific design for characters and thus kills variety, as you're basically telling people to flood their characters with content they don't necessarily need. Having too many moves leads to moveset saturation and thus results in redundant moves; it's better to have a smaller moveset where every move has a purpose than to have a large moveset where some moves are useless compared to others or just serve the same purpose. In addition, assists require the character to be designed around them, but what this suggests is to just have them for the sake of having them.

 

In short, I cannot agree with the current trophy criteria because it pushes quantity over quality and rewards creators for following these ridiculous standards instead of making what they want.

 

As a side note, the platinum trophy criteria doesn't take into consideration the complexity (or lack thereof) of the original game, so someone could spend ages figuring out the nuances of UNIST to get that trophy, only for someone to also get it just for making something from Kart Fighter.

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I would probably make the community requirement gradual, as some people implied, that there is some bias that would favor a specific type of creators and would ditch another, as there is many authors who made characters for different purposes.

 

Many of the other requirements are just other forms of gatekeeping that was explained better by other MFFA members, and some authors would just exploit loopholes for the sake of getting trophies.

 

I would also limit the number of character requirement for these awards, as even some of the best creators are far from making 15 characters or more. You could only make a single characters yet is beloved by everyone.

 

I would say the the requirements should be something like this.

 

For a character to be counted as complete, it must have all necessary sprites and states and no major bugs. 

Bronze = create 1-3 or more complete characters.  They must not be very low effort though.
Silver = create 3 or more complete characters, and the characters have received favorable reviews from at least 1 known reputable source.
Gold = create 5 or more complete characters, and the author must have shown great knowledge of MUGEN coding and character balance.
Platinum = create 10 or more complete characters, and the author must have met the requirement from Gold.

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Darkflare

On 3/11/2019 at 12:09 AM, Darkflare said:

I would ditch the additional requirements beyond the number of creations.

If we ditch them all but the numbers, I think we'd be rewarding quantity over quality.  Which is something plasmoid is also worried about with the current criteria.  So I can see ditching all the ones that are currently there, like other people are saying, and yourself in part at least.  They do call for a specific type of character, which is shitty.  Too rigid.  What would be your thoughts on replacing them instead with something a little looser and more refined?

 


MkTendou

On 3/11/2019 at 7:10 AM, MkTendou said:

JUS was only an example of many character styles that a lot of people wouldnt use a choice for playing but that doesnt mean the character is bad.  The requirements sounds like if the coder should stop doing the style they love to fit the style the judges love and this is far away from being a valid point to hard analysis.

A valid point, I hear that and it's certainly not something I'm interested in doing, pigeonholing creators into creating a certain type of character if they want a trophy.  Fuck that.  Yea so the requirements (at least for character creation) have to be pulled way back to necessities only.  Anything beyond that, the kinds of specifications that would produce a specific type of character, maybe should each have their own trophy (like a capcom style char creation trophy etc).  But that's way down the road, so not to get side tracked.

On 3/11/2019 at 7:10 AM, MkTendou said:

IMO only include basic related art stuffs for mugen such as required sprites etc

Yes, got it.  
 

 

PlasmoidThunder

On 3/11/2019 at 10:13 AM, PlasmoidThunder said:

Like I said on Discord, the criteria for the silver and gold trophies enforces a specific design for characters and thus kills variety, as you're basically telling people to flood their characters with content they don't necessarily need. Having too many moves leads to moveset saturation and thus results in redundant moves; it's better to have a smaller moveset where every move has a purpose than to have a large moveset where some moves are useless compared to others or just serve the same purpose. In addition, assists require the character to be designed around them, but what this suggests is to just have them for the sake of having them.

 

In short, I cannot agree with the current trophy criteria because it pushes quantity over quality and rewards creators for following these ridiculous standards instead of making what they want.

Agreed fully, and already covered why.  When I first put the idea out there a couple years ago, I just had numbers for the criteria.  People rightly brought up the point that that's again pushing quantity over quality, so I / we took a first shot at drawing up some criteria.  But yea looking back like you guys are pointing out they are stiflingly narrow.  So then in pulling them back to bare minimum so they interfere with the creative process as little as possible, what would be your recommendations for requirements?

On 3/11/2019 at 10:13 AM, PlasmoidThunder said:

As a side note, the platinum trophy criteria doesn't take into consideration the complexity (or lack thereof) of the original game, so someone could spend ages figuring out the nuances of UNIST to get that trophy, only for someone to also get it just for making something from Kart Fighter.

Heard.



HelloMyNameIsAAA

On 3/11/2019 at 7:26 PM, HelloMyNameIsAAA said:

I would also limit the number of character requirement for these awards, as even some of the best creators are far from making 15 characters or more. You could only make a single characters yet is beloved by everyone.

 

I would say the the requirements should be something like this.

 

For a character to be counted as complete, it must have all necessary sprites and states and no major bugs. 

Bronze = create 1-3 or more complete characters.  They must not be very low effort though.
Silver = create 3 or more complete characters, and the characters have received favorable reviews from at least 1 known reputable source.
Gold = create 5 or more complete characters, and the author must have shown great knowledge of MUGEN coding and character balance.
Platinum = create 10 or more complete characters, and the author must have met the requirement from Gold.

 I like your idea of having a "complete character" criteria which applies to all characters submitted  (required sprites etc).  I'd like to expand it a little further too.  As for the number of characters required, I'll lower it a little bit, but I want to keep the platinum trophies really difficult to get, so they're rare.  The bronze should be relatively easy, so younger people and beginner creators can at least get themselves a trophy.  But if the numbers are lower, I think there should be some kind of extra thing to get a platinum.  idk what exactly...

 


 

Everyone
I fully agree we should avoid boxing people in creatively.  Like at all.  It's Mugen.  The question then becomes what precisely are the distinguishing characteristics that make for a "good" character in any style?  On what basis exactly can this judgement be made?

@HelloMyNameIsAAA I definitely like your idea of having a "complete character" criteria which draws on @MkTendou and @PlasmoidThunder suggestion of just doing required sprites etc.  So using that as a starting point, and then adding requirements similar to required sprites and states, while including AAA's other idea of adding a single unique requirement to each trophy, (and lowering the numbers a little) this is what I got so far:

Complete Character
   • All required sprites and states
   • Palette functions properly
   • Sounds are balanced and present where appropriate 
   • Damage dealt and received is appropriate to the character
   • No bugs, debug floods or sprite swaps

Bronze ~ Create 3 complete characters.  
Silver ~ Create 5 complete characters.  1 must have an A in either presentation or functionality in the Monthly Judgement.
Gold ~ Create 8 complete characters.  Author must have shown great knowledge of MUGEN coding and character balance.
Platinum ~ Create 13 complete characters.  1 of which  must act as their Masterwork, which they feel represents the current full extent of their person skill set.

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